After yesterday, I seriously wondered whether I wanted to continue with Double Standards Week 2 since folks seemed to take things quite personally. I had to delete about 16 comments that had dissolved into either straight out profane name calling or were just plain mean, we don't play like that in BougieLand. These are just observations and questions for the purpose of discussion and information sharing, people. Okay? All is love... Moving on.
Single women with children are often scorned, demoralized and forced to explain the circumstance by which they found themselves with child and without a man. There's an entire movement out called No Wedding No Womb (which I refuse to go in on) that almost requires a woman to apologize for choosing to have children out of wedlock. One group of NWNW critics call it slut-shaming. Ouch!
I'm not going to argue the issues of single motherhood, it's a well-documented fact that fatherless black children and fragmented African-American families face challenges and disadvantages in health, wealth, opportunity and education. No doubt this extends along racial lines. Although I have to point out that a dysfunctional two-parent family can cause far more harm than a happy single-parent family. Whole other topic.
As far as single parenthood goes, what about the fellas? Not referring to that idiot in Michigan who has 14 kids by thirteen different women, that's just obscene. I'm MERELY asking - are single men with kids viewed with the same level of scorn and derision as their female counterparts? Do as many women say "I won't date a man with kids" as men do? For instance, I know a man who has sole custody of his two kids (from a woman he never married), and the ladies think it's honorable and adorable that he's raising these kids on his own. He's a hero. When was the last time a sister with two kids and no husband was considered "honorable, adorable, heroic"?
Is there a double standard when it comes to being unmarried with kids? Even in cases of divorce and separation, are men afforded more of a "these things sometimes happen" pass than females? Or has the stigma of having "baby mama drama" caught up with the single dad? And while I'm on it - have a few crazy-assed baby mamas given the rest a bad (BAD!) name? Thoughts, comments, opinions. The floor is yours... but keep it friendly.
146 comments:
Yay, first comment! (Boo, why am I up this early when I don't have class until 11?)
As far as "hero" dads, I think one problem is that deadbeat fatherhood is more acceptable than people want to admit. Some women don't care if the men they're dating don't take care of their kids, and some men don't care if their friends aren't, either. I guess they don't consider it as a sign of the person's character? (To me, the irresponsibility seems evident *shrug*) But lots of people will fall for that "she trapped me" excuse.
I can only speak from the experience of a very close relative who's 35 and unmarried--she wanted a man without kids up until a few years ago, then I guess she felt it was too unlikely and became open to men with kids (on my advice--tee-hee, what do I know?). But even now, her boyfriend was married to the mother of his child (though they married 2 years after she was born). For some women, I'm sure that makes a difference. Do older men expect to be able to hold their "no kids" rule and still snag a good woman? (No, someone young enough to be your daughter doesn't count.)
Geez. I had no idea there was so much drama in BougieLand. That's what I get for leaving a comment and going on about my business.
Anyway, there is definitely a double standard in this area. I read another blog written by a single father and he asked his readers if he should go after child support from his baby's mother. The overwhelming majority told him that he should be the bigger person and let it go. What???? I thought that was ridiculous. Of course, he should go after it. If he were a woman we'd be screaming from the rooftops, "Get yo money, girl!"
I think it's the "Johnny Appleseed" syndrome. Men, by design are just more likely to spread the seed and leave. As a human being, and an adult, I am fully aware that this isn't moral or ethical and the desire to see the physical form of your DNA take shape should be more apparent and appealing.
Walking away is unfortunately seen as the norm because it happens so often. I'm dating a man, who would would drive all the way from Virgina to Florida twice a month, lost several jobs, and was rendered basically homeless while he made sure he paid his child support. He postponed his career and dreams just to move closer to his son.
When we first started dating and he would talk about the particulars and details of his situation, I would congratulate him for stepping up to the plate. maybe after the third time, I mentioned him as being a good father, he asked me to stop. He was appreciative that I recognized his efforts, but he felt uncomfortable getting accolades for doing what a father is suppose to do.
Yes, it's definitely a double standard.
I'm 30 years old and grew up in an era when fatherless children was soaring, as a result, I'm seeing more and more of my males peers stepping up to the plate and doing what they are suppose to do.
of course there is a double standard. I have three sons and now two ex wives and, near as I can tell, no one is fitting me for a scarlet D. Most men are pretty good fathers, even non-custodial ones, but the media attention always goes toward those who are completely absent, which only leads to This unicorn status that even mediocre fathers get. Even as I benefit from it, it's rather unfortunate.
The solution isnt to cast matching aspersions upon Single Fathers, the solution is to stop demonizing people for any reason.
People are not their demographic descriptions.
I give every single man with kids the side eye, the same way I do for single women. No double standard for me. And I really loathe how women just love single dads - aren't they doing what they are supposed to be doing? Are we praising folks for taking showers, brushing their teeth, and paying bills now too? Being a single parent doesn't necessarily make a guy a horrible person, but I'm not going to praise him to death like he's cured cancer. He's taking care of his responsibilities, awesome. But that doesn't get you any extra points.
Ha, we read the same post yesterday. I just had to shake my head at those comments. Too many folks just didn't understand why he needed to go for CS.
O yea, there is definitely a double standard. Men get more of a pass. The Johnny Appleseed syndrome is so real (Lakechia, 2010). The baby mama stigma is a deterrent to dating men with children but it has not weakened their chances of finding serious relationships. And yes, the crazy BMs out there have given the rest a bad name, the fear of BMD is a high ranking reason why women (even single mothers) are not too quick to date a man with children but they still have it easier than a woman with children.
Chele, thank you for providing a forum as it is obvious that Black men and women need a place to speak their peace to each other. If that happened on a regular basis, things might not get so hot when it comes to certain topics.
I think there is a double standard because the media constantly shows us deadbeat dads so when we meet "real" dads, we fawn over them. Let's be real - dads can leave if they want to whereas mothers can't leave that easity. My mother used to say "Mama's baby, daddy's maybe" so I think on some level, we are all responding to that notion.
I think once you reach a certain age, kids come with the territory whether male or female. I am less concerned about the fact that you have kids and more concerned about the type of father that you are as it speaks of character. If you have kids and are a good and present father, we can roll. After having dated a few single fathers, I will say that they seem very cautious with mingling women with their child(ren). All of the single fathers I dated voiced the idea that the only woman their kids would meet was the next wife.
I just can't stomach the potential for Baby Mama Drama, or even Crazy Ex Wife Drama, which is why I wouldn't readily go for a single man with children. No side-eye, just a wide berth.
A man with multiple BMs and not a whisper of a wedding for any of them? I'd have to be severely brain damaged first.
major ditto to everything you just said. And I DON'T want a man with kids at my age (24). Perhaps if I were mid 30s, but hell to the no at this point. I seem to have gotten this far without being knocked up with out of wedlock kids, I don't want to take care of yours. With so many contraceptives on the market, goes back to bad sperm management again.
Double standard? Damn skippy. Why do we give men the slow-clap for handling their functions?
No, I don't think the stigma of being a single dad carries as much weight as the single mom. Most often, you see the mother with kids, (for whatever reason) so when you do see a man taking care of his kids, it's like "aww how sweet, he's taking care of his responsibility." Sistas don't get praised because it's expected of us to automatically be maternal. But for the crazy baby mamas making the rest of us look bad, I wanna say: go saddown somewhere and focus on being a good parent. You making it hard for the rest of us, and we already have it hard already. But, on the other hand, I guess you could say craziness is in the mouth of who says it (eye of the beholder didn't sound right to me). If you call them out on things they're suppose to do (like being responsible), they might call you crazy *long deep sigh* I apologize if some of this doesn't make sense. I was dealing with some un-Bougie females, masquerading as adults. They would greatly benefit from reading your blog. It might teach them how to actually...grow up. And one thing I wish some females would get though their heads, is that..HAVING A BABY DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN ADULT!! Grr..Sorry Chele rant over..:-)
Long time lurker here so be nice :-) Chris Rock's bit on the absurdity of our praise for black fathers doing what they're supposed to do is priceless and speaks well to the points raised in this post. Yes, there is definitely a double standard.
Case in point. A guy that I dated early in college stepped out with another girl and had not 1 but 2 children by her eventually. I was LONG gone before the birth of child #1 due to the deception, etc. Some years after our breakup, his parents were trying to talk him up to me (the one that got away) when they saw me at church. Yes, we all attended the same church (let's save the discussion about the role the blk church plays in encouraging bw to make decisions that are not in their best interest for another day). At that time, I was working on my PhD, childless, and no drama (present stats: still childless, no drama, and doing the career thing while dating quality men iso marriage). I was offended that they thought it would be good for me to revisit the guy who cheated on me, hadn't yet found a true job, and had 2 children by a woman he could care less about. SMH...Just because I am good for your son does not mean that he is good for me, ya dig? I was so tired of the double standard (and them talking him up to me every Sunday) that I finally asked his mother if the roles were reversed would she advise her son to get back with me? She looked shocked and then admitted that she would not. I then asked her why would she try to put on me the very the thing she wouldn't want for her own son.
My point is that the double standard exists not only in how we view single dads in comparison to single moms, but also in the extent to which we try to raise the stock of some less than stellar single dads as dating options for women w/o the baggage. We protect IBM from single moms w/ a passion yet we chastise IBW for not getting with the single dad who despite the drama he is bringing (i.e., baby mama drama, etc.) is a "good man" we would be lucky to have (see Chele's recent experience with six-nine dude as a perfect example of such a defense).
Please note that I am NOT saying that all single dads have drama but rather I'm trying to draw a distinction between the baggage we associate with single moms and the halo we often place on single dads when there are individuals in both cases that don't deserve the pos/neg stereotypes we assign. Let's call a spade a spade regardless of whether the single parent is male or female and support and affirm those who are working hard to navigate the challenging journey as a single parent.
*drops mic*...*returns to lurking*
Psst! Chele: Are you going to tackle the double standard for interracial dating among bw and bm?
The doors of the church are now open. All those who will, let them come.
"...(let's save the discussion about the role the blk church plays in encouraging bw to make decisions that are not in their best interest for another day)." *bows in prayer, "Lawd please make them stop the madness!"*
"...that I finally asked his mother if the roles were reversed would she advise her son to get back with me?" This.right.here.
I agree with the other posters. There is definitely a double standard. Single fathers get a thunder clap for "stepping up" and single mothers get a side-eye for not having a ring on it. When I see a single father OR mother, I applaud them equally because it's hard to be a single parent. Unfortunately, men get accolades for doing what they should be doing anyway.
Also, I don't prefer men with children. I'm early 30's and have actually never had a problem finding a man without children. I don't really LOVE children like that anyway, so for me to be with a man with kids would just be ludicrous. I may can do one, depending on the situation. Plus, there's always the child's mother....I just don't do drama and men with children come with built-in drama that I don't want. I've waited this long and was responsible enough not to have my own, I don't think I should have to settle for something I don't want.
One other thing, why is it that a single woman with no children gets the "who-do-you-think-you-are" look when she states she doesn't want a man with children? I've had women (not men) literally try to convince me why I'm going to be alone with the cats on the porch swatting flies because I don't want a man with children. The statement "well most men these days have kids, so you will be looking for a long time or you may as well get used to it" is not MY reality. I understand it IS reality, just not mine. Plus, look at the post from yesterday, there's still quite a few men without children.
My theory is, I've been waiting this long.....why settle now?
Sorry, rant over. Had a moment. I'm back now.
"HAVING A BABY DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN ADULT!!"-Yassssssssssss
O and it won't fix a broken relationship. You have made so much sense. Woosah on the un-bougie females, it's not worth it.
"I finally asked his mother if the roles were reversed would she advise her son to get back with me? She looked shocked and then admitted that she would not. I then asked her why would she try to put on me the very the thing she wouldn't want for her own son."
THIS! Enjoyed your entire post though. This needs to be put on a marquee.
Double standard? You already know. I don't give cookies for doing the right thing.
And I have to be honest, I don't mess with dudes with kids because I don't with crazy baby mamas and unfortunately a few have spoiled it for the rest...
I don't have kids but I feel there is definitely a double standard here. Part of it is the media highlighting deadbeat dads 24/7/365. It makes a Dad that handles up look like a Saint. Like Chris Rock said, it's what your SUPPOSED to do. It could be tough for a single Dad with custody in some ways, because I bet the woman thinks that if he has the kids then their Mom must have some issues, because it is such a rarity.
I bet it's tougher for a single Mom to date because if she has custody then arrangements have to be made anytime you want to go out on a date. For most single Dads, they're on their own so it's not like they deal with them every day.
That's the part that's tough for me...you lose spontaneity or you have to "keep it down because my kids are in the next room" (if you know what I mean).
Single dad who had to fight (like hell) for custody of his baby girl - I don't want congratulations for doing what a father should do. I teach a class called Fatherhood for Fools for a reason. First of all, if men started looking at every potential sex partner as someone who might be the future mother of their child... condoms would stay on and in fact, you may rethink the whole enterprise.
Yes, there's a huge double standard. Sure the deadbeat dads get a side-eye but for some reason people (including some of the fathers) think that if they cut a check once a month their job as a parent is done. The mothers generally withstand much more censure and opinionated backlash.
Overall, everybody needs to(in your words) Just. Do. Better.
Oh trust, we are side-eyed too for preferring to date a woman without kids. I agree with your theory about waiting so long; I'm glad you brought that to light.
"why is it that a single woman with no children gets the "who-do-you-think-you-are" look when she states she doesn't want a man with children?" Never heard that one, but I am new to this here country. In my parts folks will be looking at you like why are you putting yourself into unnecessary baggage, did we run out of childless men...or like an aunt asked me "are you that desperate". The only people that flaunt their fatherhood/motherhood are the ones that are divorced. Ours is a bit different, the father takes the kid(s) once there is a split (well its mostly in cases with married folks). Unwed parenthood is still highly frowned upon and both parties get the side-eye treatment.
i really don't know that many single dads but i wouldn't look at them funny if i did. i know for a fact it's hard for a man to gain custody of his own child if the woman wants to keep her child. perhaps that's why we don't see so many single fathers (you know asides from the obvious). do i think there's a double standard? yes. but that's life. there are double standards everywhere. everyone benefits from them but the second one doesn't benefit a certain group then all of a sudden double standards in general are a problem.
Product of a single mother and watching her deal with the looks and the whispers and the "why doesn't she find a daddy for that poor child" literally made me sick. By the time the person who donated sperm to my mother came around to demand visitation, you can imagine I had a bit of anger. He trotted me around like a living doll to show his new woman that he could be "a father" and she fell for it. She married him, had his child and he left her too. Haven't seen or heard from him since. My half brother and I are tight though.
The ability to impregnate a woman is not cause for celebration or congratulations. I will gladly applaud the "real fathers" out there doing right by their kids but I want to salute the mothers doing what the fathers do in high heels with the weight of the world on their shoulders.
Long time reader, first time poster.I realize this is 'off topic', but since you opened the door I am walking in. I find it interesting that you refuse to acknowledge the benefits of NWNW while enjoying the benefits of having married parents. No one is "slut shaming", what people are trying to do is tell YOUNGER black women that they have a choice. The best intoduction to NWNW is the blog post here:
http://sojournerspassport.com/you-betta-recognize-thats-its-far-better-to-be-a-divorced-mother-than-a-never-married-mother-with-out-of-wedlock-children/
This should be required reading for all.
"...if men started looking at every potential sex partner as someone who might be the future mother of their child... condoms would stay on and in fact, you may rethink the whole enterprise." THIS! And if this state of enlightenment ever catches hold, I'm gonna buy stock in the Trojans company, and get in on the IPO for the male birth control pill...
I was just going to sit on the sidelines today but I had to put on my Sunday hat for this. AMEN and AMEN!!
I acknowledge that NWNW is great in theory. Beyond the theoretical however, I would like to see more of a solution based action plan and less rhetoric. Until the movement is bit more fleshed out, I've declined to speak on it. Thanks for posting!
Arrgh! I hate that whole "she trapped me" shiggity. Takes two. Cover up or don't go in.
Exactly this - equal everything. If he's due $$$ from old girl, he should get his - no doubt. We'd most definitely say the same if the situation was reversed.
Stealing Johnny Appleseed syndrome.
Agreed! BougieYoungerBro is divorced with five (5!!!) kids and the women are pouring out of the woodwork. If I had five kids, best believe they would not be lining up for me ;-)
Girlfriend of mine said it's almost like we are congratulating black men for simply existing. #Shotsfired
I should take a pass on this. "Explanations" for excessive male procreation make my blood pressure rise. This whole Johnny Appleseed syndrome is pure bullshiggity! In lesser species like cats it's valid. In humans hell no! Johnny Appleseed in humans ain't nothing but an excuse for a subset of "trifling selfish no good don't give a shiggity MFer" syndrome! Period.
Onto the topic. Yes there is a double standard just like every damn thing else when comparing women and men. In this case it's an intersection of patriarchy, racism, and classism.
Please do a post on No Wedding No Womb. I have some thoughts on that :o)
Agreed.
Probably a good policy on both sides not to introduce your kids to everybody you meet.
You already know how I feel about the drama. Life is too short. And once we start getting into multiple Baby Mamas and not a wedding ring amongst the group - boy bye. Your irresponsibility is battling your immaturity for most unlikeable traits ever.
No apology necessary. Let me pass the offering plate...
I havent gone through all of the comments and I'm sure someone has already said this but it rubs me some kind of way when people are "honored and adored" for doing what the hell they are supposed to do!! Those are YOUR children you are SUPPOSE to take care of them...LOL, maybe it's just me.
loving this Double Standards week!
Look at you coming out of Lurkerdom with a vengeance!
Last year's Double Standard Week had IR dating: http://www.blacknbougie.com/2009/10/why-double-standard-issue-1-interracial.html
Enjoy!
Welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll! Tabernacle!!!!
Well said ma'am, well said.
What's interesting is that I'm sure for every crazy baby mama out there, there's an equally crazy baby daddy wreaking havoc...
You better preach! for some reason people (including some of the fathers) think that if they cut a check once a month their job as a parent is done <~~ TRUTH!
Wow, thanks for sharing. Interesting perspective
One thing that I can say is that BnB doesn't attacking those sacred cows. Keep on fighting the good fight.
Seriously, you need to take the ish nationwide "Fatherhood for Fools" - I got about 8 or nine bruhs who need to sign up like yesterday
Reach one, teach one. No one can say I don't try...
I was just telling my younger cousin this, after he got himself into some potential drama. Great advice
The thought has always been that women are supposed to be the ones to say no while men are supposed to get as much as they can. Therefore if the woman turned up pregnant, it was on her for not saying no. If a man was going to be a father, well - boys will be boys.
You would think that thoughts and opinions would have evolved a little bit more. But here we are.
Let the church say yeahhhhhhhhhhh
What I would love? For everybody to take two steps back and a deep breath before diving into the cocoa. Stop treating it like casual recreation and recognize it for the intimate act with serious emotional, spiritual (and possible physiological, financial) ramifications. If you must indulge without a ring on it for goodness sake take precautions. It's just not that difficult.
Here endeth the Public Service Announcement...
Hm. I think this depends. I know among my single friends, the baby mama drama issue is a huge turn-off.
When I was dating, dudes with kids were not a dating option for me and I didn't care how they got the kids -- teen slip-up, baby mama, ex-wife, widower -- I wasn't interested.
Now, this wasn't a judgment on THEM but rather me understanding my own selfishness and limitations. I didn't want to negotiate a relationship with the mother of a dude's kid(s). I didn't have any interest in spending time with kids, doing kiddie stuff and/or rearranging my schedule around to accommodate children. A GREAT dad would spend a lot of time with his child(ren) and therefore would not have enough solo time for me. And if he wasn't a great dad, why would I want him?
You know it!
I too felt like he should get his money.
Doesn't matter how broke a man is or how many other children he has to support no one ever tells a woman not to get her money.
Best thing about BnB - you do keep us thinking.
Double standards week rocks.
This sounds like a manifesto: "Scorned Black Woman, Go Get Yo Paper Girl!!" There's nothing in here about telling younger black women they have a choice. It's all about how humiliating paternity cases are. Even if it does have valid points, the post has too much finger-pointing and name-calling for me to take it seriously.
And this is the BEST introduction to NWNW??? No thank you.
Disclosure: 40 y.o. SBF, happily childfree (I always knew I had a choice).
This gave me significant pause : if men started looking at every potential sex partner as someone who might be the future mother of their child
*cancels booty call dinner date planned for tonight* Dammit Dude!
I had the experience of dating a young lady with small children. Even though I explained that I'm in residency, no time for anything serious, she trotted out the kids and introduced them to Uncle Will, #Awkward
While she finished getting ready, I played with the kids, very cute and likeable. We went on the date which was marginal at best. I didn't call for a second date. Two weeks later one of her kids called my cell phone to ask me if I was ever coming back. Now come on - that's just crazy and a sad manipulation of your kids.
So I don't rule out women with children, I just work very hard not to meet them unless I know it's going somewhere. Easier on everybody.
Thanks for the link Chele!
As a teacher and youth leader, I like the NWNW movement. It is getting the message on the minds of young black women everywhere. It seems black youth don't understand that the number 1 cause of pregnancy is unprotected sex. My girls seem not to understand this and they walk around thinking what's the worst that could happen, mama did it so can I. I have seen 3 girls with promising futures give up on their chances to go to college because they were expecting. We should be exposing the real realities behind oow parenting and thats what NWNW is doing. From what I hear and deal with daily, I appreciate the movement. It is having a little impact on some of my kids. Since single parents are being too defensive to be real with their sons and daughters, some one else is doing it.
(Last sentence)Since "some"
I see your point but I do get significant side-eye when I tell people I have a 10-year old son and I'm 26 years old. Hell, I side-eyed myself as a 15 year old father. And no, I did not (and will not) marry the mother. Thankfully, she's not crazy and nor am I. I not only handle my financial responsibility, I'm your typical helicopter Dad - I hover like hell. That boy won't do a damn thing before his 18th birthday that I don't know about.
I don't need applause or praise. I need less judgment and less know-it-all-ness from people who haven't walked down the block in my shoes. But I will say for as much shiggity as I took, the mother took ten times as much. I know for a fact there are men that won't date her because of the stigma and baggage. I also know there are men that try and run up on her thinking she's easy because who else gets pregnant at 15? It's a definite no-win.
Anyway, thanks for providing a forum to read diverse and divergent viewpoints.
Praise the Lawd! Lives are being changed!!
"Uncle Will"? Awkward indeed.
NWNW is the new cuz to Abstinence Education - none of those joints work. You telling folks who are sold sex, sex, sex morning noon and night not to have any. Young girls who see hoochies booty shaking and getting famous for doing no more than sleeping with the right athlete - you wanna tell them to keep their legs together? Works as well as Just say No! Whatever. What you betta do is pass out condoms and birth control pills and tell mama, daddy, auntie and grandma to get the belt ready to chase off every horny ninja trying to get near girlie's drawers. Oh and pray.
In our generation (those of us born in the sixties and seventies), we were beginning to see less of the traditional family, and more of the "alternatives". I know that from my experience I saw girls being brought up to be able to keep a house clean, cook a great meal, AND earn a decent living because a man may not ever be there for you. Their brothers were raised to take on a few chores here and there and stay out of the way. When our households became female-centric, and fewer men were included in the family circle, women were raising boys with little positive male influence. So it was always a surprise to see a man taking on the single parent role and doing it with grace, dignity, and style. Even in my mother's time, when my grandmother died my grandfather scooped up my mother and all the younger siblings and left them with relatives because as a widower he wasn't expected to rear and raise little boys AND little girls. meanwhile, the relatives were neglectful and abusive, and the kids were taken back only when my grandfather found another wife.
Now - I am seeing more and more traditional families with a mother and father, and you are just as likely to find young men in Home Ec learning household skills as well as in metal shop or automotive class. I hope men are encouraged with the view that their efforts are encouraged. When I dated a man with custody of his children, I didn't treat him like a novelty. It was just a matter of discussion of whether I could deal with it. I did, we dated for a few moths, then broke it off. Not because of the kids, but because we just weren't meant to be.
However a man finds himself in this situation, he must deal with it responsibly and keep things in good order, and then he can be a great role model for single fathers and mothers. The double standard will not go away overnight because the same ideas of male/female role are around, but we should not perpetrate it by giving a single father a pass, nor should we go to the extreme and offer equal opportunity smack-downs.
Fatherhood for Fools should be a class for high school or a college sociology course!
Wow. There must have been some serious head games played on those children. SMH...
Here I am picturing the slow clap for a guy seen pushing a stroller in Wal-Mart with another baby in a sling holder on his chest.
::ahem...again chele - with the flashlight?::
i have full custody of my 13 yr old son. i dont particularly *feel* like it gets me any extra coochie coupons, not that im seeking them out.
i would say that in regards to double-standards in general - YES - life is FULL of them. women get to be emotionally vulnerable and express and feel the full range of their emotions. men - no matter the situation or our personal foibles, we only have one option - man up. period. whythahell you think we die sooner - walking around our whole life bottling everything up inside is why!
raise ur hands ur sista - you're lying in the bed next to your man. ya'll hear a noise in the house, and you look over at him and he's under the covers talking about he's too scared to go investigate. how many of you would look at his ponk behind with disgust?
now as a man - with not necessarily any more training or experience than you in dealing with situations like this, i gots to pull up my big boy drawses, channel steven segal as best i know how - and go see 'wth is going on up in this house!'...while ur still ensconced under the covers with the phone in ur hand, ur finger on the last 1 of 9-1-1.
YES life is full of double standards.
a movie dripping with drama - sistas get to boohoo through the whole movie. you look over at your man and he's crying harder than you? after you karate chop him to the throat - you will walk out and leave him there by his dayum self.
as tlR would probably - the situation is what is. recognize it - plan accordingly - and deal with it.
I had a long long long comment written. I was going to tell the story of my husband (married 2 months), who had just found out that he had a 6-year-old child when I met him--my then-b/f sent him to me for advice on how to deal with family court, since my then-b/f had a child that he never saw (and I figured out later that he likes it that way, since he can cry about how he doesn't get his rights as a father but he pays his money). I realized it was a long story, and probably not something anyone here really wants to hear. Suffice it to say, when hubby found out that there was a child, and that this child was indeed his, he threw himself full-bore into being a father. It makes me angry that there are so many jerks out there who are of the stereotypical "eats, shoots, and leaves" persuasion, because he always got the side-eye when he talked about what he wanted for his son...provided anyone paid attention to him at all.
There are both single mothers and single fathers out there who do what is right. There are some of those who do what is right simply *because* it is what it right. It is important to acknowledge them, and to do so publicly--even though they are just doing "what they are supposed to do"--because POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT is such a powerful tool, *especially* if they are among the parents whose moral compass is a little wobbly, and could fall through the cracks into SadExcuseForAParentVille.
/step off the soapbox
Well sir, you are living a life. Should I send you a list of the rest of the double standards I'm covering this week? ;-)
You have said more than a notion here.
Ha! Blocked by Bouge!
Okay - that IS CRAY-ZEE!
I hadn't read that one before - good stuff!
Those poor children! Their mom is using them as relationship pawns. This is why I'm all in favor of parenting licenses. People who cut hair and put polish on my fingernails need a license, but no certification needed to raise a child.
I can be selfish and demanding in a relationship, but I give as much (if not more at times) as I expect from my mate; therefore, I refused to date men with kids, no matter how they came to be--from a one-night stand or a loving marriage. I made one exception that affirmed why it wasnt the life I wanted to live. If I was coming to the table without any complications, I wasn't willing to make any compromises. I made no judgement on a man if he had kids, I just knew my own limits. Negotiating QT in a relationship can be very difficult with work, school, and family obligations already; there was no way I wanted a kid (and its mother) who wasnt my own in that mix!
My father was married 3 times and has 7 children altogether. When my mom met him he had 2 kids and by the time his 3rd wife came along, she had 2 ex-wives and 4 children (ages 21, 19, 15, and 6) to contend with. There was no drama between the women thankfully but because my dad was an active participant in everything from recitals and sports to parent-teacher conferences and he wanted us kids to have a rel with one another, she had a lot on her plate even before her own 3 kids came along. On one hand, I give her props for taking on such a challenge, yet I feel she was out of her damn mind. I love my father, but I didn't pick him or the situation I was born into, she had choices!
My only explanation is that many women see it as honorarble when a man does what he is supposed to do by taking care of the kids he's made because (sadly) so many do not. Who doesnt want a guy that does the "right thing"? [sarcasm] That makes a guy a 'catch' while a woman who usually has no choice but to have her kids is shamed for it. I remember my mother navigating the dating world with 2 kids after my parents divorced. Trust me, it wasn't as easy to find someone willing to take on a ready-made family as my dad found.
This story makes me tired.
Not every woman who gives birth is maternal, just like not every man who knocks a woman up is paternal. We should praise both the parents who stay and bring up rational sane and good kids. Some people however shouldn't be allowed to be in a room with children much less raise them, I personally haven't met a man who has children that i would be willing to date, generally i know them first so i tend to know what happened to the previous relationships and sometimes i know the women and i wouldn't want to be linked to them even in a conversation much less in a family.(yay for small towns)
So for many of the women in my set (educated, own their own homes,and are single, no children) won't date men with drama, and not every woman who has kids is prone to drama either just the ones who have been led on and haven't learned to let go. Because I certainly know a few women who have children and have divorced and 1 in particular had her ex show up on a date and flip because she dared to move on. Why? Because she was the mother of his child (like that makes her a sacred vessel or something) and she shouldn't be dating. you should talk about that next, the men who have kids split from their wives and then resent the hell outta the women for moving on
And I dated a guy who told me he had kids by showing up at my door with them, when I opened the door he said, "Say hi to your new Mommy."
No sir.
makes you wonder if girls were saying no like they're supposed who are boys going to be boys with?
I'm going to add my $0.001 before reading the rest of the comments :-D
Yes, there is a double standard when it comes to being umarried with kids. Men aren't judged as harshly in general, and they are lauded for doing NORMAL, everyday EXPECTED tasks called PARENTING. No, you get no cool points from me for having custody of your children, raising them, spending time with them, providing for them. That is what you are supposed to do. If we are handing out cookies for what you are supposed to do, I'd like my two boxes of Girl Scout Thin Mints for being employed and possessing a graduate degree.
Anywho, I think a lot more women scrutinize men with children as potential drama-magnets, but I believe more women are willing to give a man with children a chance. Especially women over 25.
As for the crazy BMs, there are some out there. But, after my experiences in the dating game, and working for child support, I'm more likely to believe that there are a sizeable number of BMs who were driven to their crazy antics by kneegrows pulling a whole heap of bullshiggity. And men who don't do all that foolishness, and their BMs still act crazy, tend not to waste any breath complaining about their crazy BM.
Product of single parent household. Watched my mother hustle, scrape and sacrifice. No one can tell me that single mothers don't have the hardest most thankless job in a world.
THIS! And you highlighted all of the reasons why I don't date men with children. That, and it seems like a raw deal for women any way you slice it.
I was just going to comment this on the one above yours how everyone will tell you he's a good man, sorta like Whitney's mom in Waiting to exhale, she knew he was wrong for her daughter but kept pushing him just so she woudln''t be lonely, considering when you die you die alone why are you stressing me to hurry up and settle down with someone not good for me? this is why i switched churches I can't stand the hypocrisy that happens in many not all but many of the predominately black churches near me.
I actually know someone who was"trapped", she put pinpricks in all the condoms, even when he bought new ones, she lied about birth control and basically did everything possible to get pregnant, she knew when she was ovulating and all that jazz because as she put it "he was a man on the way" so she was hitching her wagon to him. he was not happy to be a dad so young but he did the"right thing" and got married, then someone let it slip (not me I swear) that she set him up and that was the last straw in their marriage, and she became of course the crazy baby mama.
i am the product of two people who should have never bought/mixed/drank the cocoa. and i can tell you, growing up i always heard (in reference to my mother) 'she shouldn't treat that child that way' or 'why won't she raise her own baby'. i never heard such comments in reference to my father.
i have never been opposed to dating someone with kids, perhaps it is because i can not have my own.
I don't date fathers cuz I don't do the kids thing. Just a personal preference. I have noted that non-custodial dads want to holla specifically cuz I DON'T have kids...err, huh?
I agree that dads doing their things shouldn't get the slow clap, but it's not as prevalent in pop culture/society, so it's like the Flying Unicorn Herd.
My bro used to use me (when I was a tot, clearly) as his pickup line for women, cuz he was so "caring" and "loving" with me. They ate it up! I was a 3-year-old learning a side-eye on her own at that foolishness! LOL we ROFL now, but come on, bro, get some game!
WDDDA?!?!
I'm with you on this. I gave a box of condoms to two of my teen male cousins and this speech: "if ya gonna do it, strap up. It's YOUR job, not hers, to keep you from becoming a daddy."
My one and only nephew, I threatened him with bodily harm & to strap the kid to his chest with super glue & duct tape if he got some girl pregnant.
Oh hell no!
Yes there is a double standard. I have felt it. I get way to much credit for raising my daughter even though I strive to do what any good parent strives to do. I think because of the failure of some (many) black fathers those of us who do what should be considered normal get extra credit. Not right but true.
I agree with all but your last point. The fact is there are plenty of good women in their 40's with no kids. If that is a man's preference he can find her. I don't have a problem with women who don't want to date a man with kids because that can complicate a relationship. Life is short, get what you want!
This right here!
"Probably a good policy on both sides not to introduce your kids to everybody you meet."
I used to get very leery when a woman wanted me to meet her kids (or her mama for that matter) too soon.
I never dated a man with children until I met my ex-husband (he had 2 from his ex-wife and 1 out of wedlock from when he and the wife separated - BIG flag but I thought he was a changed man). It wasn't a deal-breaker for me (obviously since we eloped before I even met the kids), but it was not my preference. Before him, the men I interacted with never had that issue. Perhaps that was because I was 24 and he was 30. Now that I'm 32, I meet more men with kids.
The ex and I were generally on one accord when it came to his kids despite the requisite ex-wife drama. He was trying to parent from afar and during summers and every other holiday. She engaged in parental alienation. I did give him credit for fighting to parent his children despite the drama. I took to being a step-mother better than I thought I would (am still sending the kids b'day gifts even though he and I barely talk), but there was a huge difference in how the ex-wife dealt with things and how the ex-woman dealt with things. The ex-woman and I are still friendly.
I fell hard for him, so I compromised on the child issue. It didn't play a role in our divorce so I didn't speak negatively about it to my girlfriends, but I did advise them that it's an extra layer of issues on top of regular newlywed issues that you should consider carefully. I think that is true for both men and women.
Since my divorce, the "new guy" that has been on a serious mission to court me, has 5(!!) kids ranging from age 5-16 (1 from high school, 4 from his ex-wife) and both moms have problems that I don't want to deal with. He's an attentive father. We have chemistry and there are things that I really like about him, but I can't overlook this and some of the other characteristics he shares with my ex -- therefore he has gotten the stiff arm. For whatever reason, he has remained persistent. I think it's because I'm a pretty darn good catch. Even though it's just God's grace that I didn't end up having my own kids during my failed marriage, I keep feeling like I shouldn't have to wade through all of this guy's level of "stuff". It's too much. And the awesome things about him have not overwhelmed the flags.
I've thought about the fact that I might be passing on a good man, but I also tend to think that I wouldn't feel this sense of warning if this was for me. Besides, I know he'll be fine. Finding female company hasn't been his problem, finding a wife has. My ex seems to have had no problem getting another successful, black woman with no kids to come into his house of 2 ex-wives, 1 baby mama, and 3 kids. I guess if you're a 6'4", fighter pilot, with ambition, a home and money in the bank, you'll find someone who will embrace you even though you're a failure at relationships.
Anyway. Yes, there is a double standard.
i totally get where you are going with this..but respectfully disagree with the comparisons.
they are not on the same level.
plus between all the blogs and books (looking at you Stevey Harvey) that tell us to think/act less like women and more like men.. you see where the frustration comes in. cuz last time i checked..i think and act like a woman because...
lean in close...
I AM ONE!! *surprise!
girls are SOCIALIZED differently than boys. period. a mom can try to instill in her little boy that it's ok to cry, but the consequences might be him getting bullied.
even the double standard of women 9/10 getting custody of children in divorce cases. not all women are FIT/MEANT to be mother. just because we have the parts, doesnt mean we all have the heart.
there are plenty of double standards in life. some have more serious consequences of their application than others.
Le Sigh Chele. So I was engaged, six months before wedding, we decide to toss caution to the wind because we both want a family. I get pregnant immediately. He freaks out and bails. Three years later, he's sorry and he wants to build a life with me and his son. Everyone is patting him on the back for wanting to "do the right thing" and giving me a stern side-eye for saying "hell no". But fool me once...
So yes, a definite double standard.
Sistas, please don't pimp out your kids like that! SMH!
Lawd - I don't even know what to say about that one. Just wow.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! #FatalError
Riley, I knew there was sensible man in there. I'm with you on the young girls booty shaking, which is why my nephew is not allowed to watch BET, MTV. The computer is in the living room, etc. You can't have that in your house and not expect your kid to be altered by it. And that's why, 5 am prayer with my nephew is a must in our house.
"First of all, if men started looking at every potential sex partner as someone who might be the future mother of their child... condoms would stay on and in fact, you may rethink the whole enterprise."
datdudeincali drops mike and walks off state left.
Comment of the day!
It's a lot to consider. And the inner conflict of "am I missing out on a good man even WITH ALL his baggage" is a dilemma I am intimately (and consistently) familiar with. In the end, you have to go with your gut and your comfort level.
Amen, and Amen.
Got a daughter. And a gun. And stay prayed up. Way ahead of you.
I'd only consider dating a man who is divorced with kids. I've learned a valuable lesson in dating a man who had kids out of wedlock (first and last time, trust). To me, a divorced man with children FROM that marriage tells me that he honors marriage and family. Anything else just screams irresponsibility not only in regard to his sexual health but his life goals and choices.
You have GOT to be kidding me! >:O
Well, well, well. This here Double Standards week is really interesting or inneresting if you prefer. Yes there is a double standard but sorry single dads get no more love from me just because they're doing what they signed on for when the cocoa mixed and - uh spilled over and made little cocoa drops. Both parents are responsible for the raising and care of the kids. If they decide they can't do it together then if the father is better able to do it than the mother, more power to you. Like so many other posters said, the trifling daddy's are making the ones that do what they're supposed to look damn near saintly these days. I knew a woman (years ago) that voluntarily gave up custody to the dad -- she felt he would be able to provide the more stable home and you could see the co-workers giving her the side-eye for weeks. Talk about a double standard! No one thinks twice if kids go to live with mom after a breakup but they talked about that poor woman like a dog. To all the single parents (mommy or daddy), keep it strong. I've been there (damn I been a subject in just about all of Chele's post - oh digressing again). With that said, I don't want a man with little kids ... I've raised mine and helping with my granddaughter now -- younguns got to be driving age -- preferably grown enough to bring us a bottle of wine.
Wow...a few weeks back we were giving sexual advice to my son...my husband told the kiddo to "NEVER EVER, EVER TAKE A CONDOM FROM A WOMAN BECAUSE THE WILL SOMETIMES PUT HOLES IN THE CONDOM WITH A NEEDLE...blah, blah, blah" I was sitting there stunned because I did not know where this was coming from, your example just affirmed this. Wow.
I'm an American living and working in Seoul and I love it here. You don't hear nor see any single women with children here. Why? They get married before they have kids. New concept! There's no baby-mama drama to speak of. Here, if there's a divorce, the husband gets the kids. It's a blood thing. Now I believe in joint custody, but at least the family ties are very strong here. Korea is not utopia, no place is, but I love their devotion to family.
This. Right. Here! Now this would be an amazing post! "The Black Church leading its flock further astray". Sitting front row and center for that one!
Agreed!! Real talk...I personally believe that people should have to take courses in human development, but that's just me.
"younguns got to be driving age" Yes! He## they have to be in college for me to even go to have a cup of coffee with the man, let alone dinner. The only little kids I would raise on this earth would have to be my own flesh and blood. Life is too short.
"A GREAT dad would spend a lot of time with his child(ren) and therefore would not have enough solo time for me. And if he wasn't a great dad, why would I want him? "<-----My thoughts exactly! This comes from my own issues with my absentee dad so a man not spending time with his child/ren is off the radar for me.
hugs for you, and side-eye right back at them. Did they forget he bailed like a coward?! You may want him in your life eventually, never say never, but he has some serious provin' to do as far as his responsibility, let alone a relationship.
1. Yes, there is a double standard. Although I have witnessed a few women with children (3 or more) pull men for SERIOUS relationships, it doesn't happen often. A lot women tend to ignore any warning signs of a man having kids, even if there is a glaring red flag that waves "and he doesn't take care of them". Le HUGE sigh!
2. Correction: That "idiot in Michigan" (from my city) had 23 kids with 14 different women. And although this guy never kept a steady gig, he had no problem getting women and sadly he won't have a problem when he gets out. Frankly, I never understood the attraction to him but that's what I get for having standards.
" not all women are FIT/MEANT to be mother. just because we have the parts, doesnt mean we all have the heart. "<-------REAL TALK! AGREE! AGREE! AGREE!
I should have said "wild unicorn herd" but, kids aren't my thing, so no need to date daddies with kids still in school. And I cosign, but thank sincerely, GrownAzzMan above. As long as we each do our little bit, we can gradually make a culture shift happen.
I feel so sorry for that child. That 'mother' only used him/her as a pawn - means to an end. If said child ends up putting her in a state home and not looking back, I wouldn't hold it against them.
A great policy!
WTH! WDDDA?
Pimpin at it's worse!
High school! Start 'em young!
Church, Tabernacle, Temple, Mosque, all of them!!!
Just wow!
You're right it is hard for a man to gain custody if the woman wants to keep her child(ren). Short of proving abuse and neglect, with hard indisputable evidence, he gets joint custody at best. Sometimes it's the luck of the draw with the judge that they get.
It's good that you and your brother are tight. I know of too many situations where siblings don't even know each other cause of all the drama of the parents.
Yeah and all the rhetoric begins to sound like Charlie Brown's teacher to these young girls, when she was talking we couldn't understand a word she was saying.
"Now, this wasn't a judgment on THEM but rather me understanding my own selfishness and limitations."...Much respect for your honesty! A lot of women feel this way but will still date a man with children and then raise all kinds of hell when things don't go their way.
Great comment!
Great advice and excellent threat to nephew! LOL
How ya like them apples!...Oh so true!
That's why I'm starting a non-profit to help teen mothers succeed. Millions are being spent on prevention, but billions are being spent on selling sex. And all we keep getting are messed up kids who grow up and continue the cycle.
Also there's so much attention being put on the deadbeats so it seems that men like yourself don't exist. Reference the "wild unicorn herd". I have also seen men who have been hindered from doing right by their children because of the crazed baby mama. I don't care if the relationship did not work, let that man be a father to his children. Reference to your comment below, "sistas please stop pimpin your kids"!
But I have to say that I do give two thumbs up to a man who raises his daughter. I'm sorry, but it take a special kind! Those young teen hormones ain't nothin nice! LOL
Three years later? All I can say is wow...Do what's best for you and your son!
"preferably grown enough to bring us a bottle of wine. " D.E.A.D.
I agree with this policy, and ask this question: when SHOULD you introduce the children? I know a woman who didn't introduce her children to the guy she was dating until they'd gotten engaged (before you ask, yes, dude knew that his new fiancee had children, long before they decided to get married).
The kids HATED dude, and made it clear. Though he never SAID it, I think the feeling was mutual. Guess what happened to the engagement??
The more things change...the more they stay the same...
Chapter...verse...
I'll have to be blunt regarding the BMs for the Michigan Moron - they must be REALLY hard up for cocoa in those parts.
Second and third that.........
You are so right. And it is a parent's responsiblity these days to be realistic and do whatever it takes to make sure their kids are informed and responsible. Saying 'Just say no" in today's society will not cut it. These kids are exposed to more than any other generation in history, and we have to make sure they are making responsible decisions and not throw them away if they make a mistake. Boys and well as girls need to understand the consequences of sex, and be held accountable. It is no longer"momma's baby, daddy's maybe". The DNA test has removed 99.9% of doubt.
Doesn't matter now, because he won custody of them when he was able to show this plus she didn't work and he had a banging lawyer who helped show that his ExSO was incompetent and negligent, but can I tell you he's one of those men now? Doesn't trust a woman unless he's known you a while, women like her piss me off all the time. Had something good and ruined it for the next.
Yeah its that crazy,the menfolk in my family told me the same thing, people who don't have your best interest at heart will try to find ways to keep you down or hold you back, if isn't yours don't trust it.
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